grynner ([info]grynner) wrote in [info]unnaturalpagans,
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Duty, Honor, Oaths of Obligation: When Ethics collide

  Hey all,
  New here to the whole LJ thing, but thought I might hit the ground running here with the formative beginnings (which means discussion) of a workshop I've been asked to create for my local community.
    My path is most definitely NOT Wiccan, nor any kind of new age "neopagan" (gods, I hate that term...but that's a different topic) "eclectic". My path is fairly shamanic in nature, and, as some would say, of a slightly more "left-handed" variety. My personal interpretation (or shortening) of "Men's and Women's Mysteries", while basically accurate, is found by many Wiccans (or eclectic wiccans) to be somewhat "offensive". I do, however, desire for all of my students to put some serious effort into their shadow work, and am willing to go to some "interesting" places to help them deal their issues. No, I don't agree with the twits who would try to have you deal with your shadow self via a short "guided meditation or workshop" where you look at your anger/shame/fear/anguish and say "I see you and I forgive you/myself" and that's supposed to be the end of it. Really dealing with ones issues, the "shadow work", is NEVER that bloody simple.
    So, after our local Samhain festival was finished the other weekend, it was suggested that I lead "Men's Mysteries" next year with a rather...touchy..subject: 
      How does one reconcile the moral dichotomy of most modern pagans and wiccans ideas that "All life is Sacred" when faced with the burden of having to act otherwise because honor, or duty has required it? How does one who is wiccan justify having taken a life (or lives) while in service to their country during war? Or during the course of duty as a member of Law Enforcement? Or when those near you have died due to your mistakes or inaction (or your misplaced blame)?
     I mean, it's easy enough to shuffle it off with tepid little platitudes like "it doesn't count in service to country/ceasar", "that's a bit of shadow work you're going to have to reconcile for yourself", "that's in the past, god/dess forgives you..now focus on the rede or the general sacredness of life". Or any of a hundred others. Even the Christians don't usually have a good answer to this beyond "render unto ceasar/Christ forgives all". And, IMHO, these are all crap. I've had students that have "these stains on their souls" ,  and none of these platitudes would even come close to working. Even amongst those wiccans that follow the variant of the rede that adds "Lest in self defence it be", there still seems to be that major stumbling block regarding the sacredness of Life. I've also run in Asatru and druids that still have this "stumbling block".
      It seems to me that a step towards this reconciliation is a slight adjustment to their worldview. "Every life is Sacred, but no more so than every Death."  It may be that the gods alone can set the time of any mans death, that being in their perview alone, but who is to say that any one of us cannot be the tools by which they act? Yet, a part of me can't help but think that even this is just another of those "worthless platitudes". 
    Or is it not even a matter of "conventional" versus "non-conventional" ethics? Could it be more closely related to that deeply ingrained idea that taking anothers life is simply *wrong*. That little aspect that some writers or shows or movies will hint at when someone becomes physically, mentally, and/or emotionally sick after taking their first or even second life? Could it be that "switch" that some psychologists and councelors encounter when dealing with a cop that just shot someone dead in the line of duty? Or that bit of "careful observation" that military snipers undergo after their initial "engagements"?
      I know shadow work, at least the kind that actually deals with peoples demons with more than just lipservice, is different from person to person. I know that while a counselor might "specialize" in these kinds of cases, no two patients will ever have the same experience, let alone the same counseling tasks. But, I also know that there are some "techniques" which do work on generalized basis.
     I know, I've asked more questions than I've answered here. But as I said, I'm just beginning to build this into a (hopefully) very useful tool for delving into what many would consider "men's mysteries". 
     I very much want your ideas and comments. If not directly with this post, then as a private message with relevant parts cut/pasted. I would very much like to like to see this develop and maybe even become a tool that gets used by priests, priestesses, and pagan clergy whenever this particular "issue" comes up.
    Needless to say, this is only Part 1 of this particular post....others will follow as the year, and the workshop, develop.    

Chris / Grynner
 That Memphis Guy

Tags: men's mysteries, pagan clergy, pagan counseling, shadow work

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  • 11 comments

[info]the_sea_lingers

October 30 2009, 08:12:15 UTC 2 years ago

Gracious-- such an interesting question at so late an hour. Will do my best to marshal some bit of consciousness and come up with something useful.

The Baghavad Gita deals entirely with this question. It's a small piece of the Mahabharata, a Hindu epic (and the world's longest piece of literature) detailing a time when humanity lost all sense of its own place & purpose and civil war raged. The Gita is the section of the epic in which our protagonist Arjuna, a prince and member of the ksatryia (warrior) caste, sees his family members, tutors, etc. on the other side of the field just before battle, loses the will to fight ("Why shouldn't we, who clearly see evil / In the destruction of the family, / Think about turning away from this sin, O Krishna? "), and has a very long conversation with Krishna about the rightness / not-rightness of waging war and killing family.

It is a complex & difficult argument, and I'd recommend reading the entirety of the Gita to fully engage its nuances (keeping in mind it came from a different culture, and some of its ideas especially in regards to caste may not be meaningful for you).

To destroy the book's complexity: each of us has a dharma which directs our purpose, a rightness-of-being, a manner in which we fit most neatly into the world. i.e. a hammer's dharma is to hammer nails, and sometimes pull them out. The more our actions are in accordance with our dharma, the more harmonious / connected we are with the greater universal form of life. (One of the indications of how chaotic the world had become in the Mahabharata is the violation of caste rules-- priests were acting as warriors, warriors as priests, etc.)

Krishna assures Arjuna by instructing him in the ways of karma yoga, 'the way of action,' one of the paths to wisdom & eventual goal of liberating oneself from the illusion of physical reality and being freed of the death / rebirth cycle. In karma yoga, one still engages with the physical world and takes action that affects it-- however, the key is having no emotional attachment to the fruits of one's actions. So Arjuna must fight the battle without emotional attachment to its consequences because he is a ksatriya, and it is his dharma to fight and yes, kill; he is fulfilling his deepest function and acts in accordance with the greater harmonic pattern as a warrior. Karma, the thing that attaches us to this world, only builds when one takes pride in victory, or shame in defeat.

As for the act of killing, Krishna shows him the thought itself is misguided:

He who thinks this self a killer
and he who thinks it killed,
both fail to understand;
it does not kill, nor is it killed.

It is not born,
it does not die;
having been,
it will never not be;
unborn, enduring,
constant, and primordial,
it is not killed
when the body is killed.

Arjuna, when a man knows the self
to be indestructible, enduring and unborn,
unchanging, how does he kill
or cause anyone to kill?


The illusion of physical life is not important; dharma / rightness is:

Look to your own duty;
do not tremble before it;
nothing is better for a warrior
than a battle of sacred duty.

The doors of heaven open
for warriors who rejoice
to have a battle like this
thrust on them by chance.

If you fail to wage this war
of scared duty,
you will abandon your own duty
and fame only to gain evil.

[info]the_sea_lingers

October 30 2009, 08:27:56 UTC 2 years ago

Oh, the exhaustion, it hunts me down.

So, what I've taken from the Gita & heavy pondering: being loath to kill in the line of duty is, in these terms, akin to a lion refusing to eat a gazelle for its own selfish needs. This is the way the world is built: lives are sacred, sure, and purposely fragile & have a tendency of ending-- and at the risk of being nihilistic, "there's always more where that came from." It is dharma / rightness for lions to kill prey, and it is also rightness for someone who has pledged to defend his country / municipality to kill, if necessary, in pursuit of that harmonious duty. Right order is preserved.

having never been in law enforcement or the military, I'm unsure if these philosophies pass the foxhole test. In the Gita, at least, this pep talk / philosophical discussion did wonders for Arjuna.

As for that last question in the series-- how to handle failure-- beats me. I have always been catastrophically bad at that part. From what I read though, both in personal struggles and business development, the most successful people are those who resist the instinct to freeze in place with despair after making a mistake. Somewhat like a high-stakes version of chess: if you have just made a terribly dumb move, the best you can do is treat the next move like a chess puzzle in the newspaper.... as if you're seeing the board for the first time, and all you need to do is make the best possible move in this given configuration of the pieces.

[info]grynner

October 30 2009, 08:55:59 UTC 2 years ago

Neat. Thanks for posting, but it's not necessarily completely useful.
The two big issues with taking this approach (as I see it) are:
The overwhelming cultural differences between old Indian society at the time this was written and our modern day (especially "american") society. You could make the corollaries between the old caste system and modern "professions" (ie clergy, warrior/soldier, cop, ect). The problem there being that in our modern society one's career often changes (say, a tour in the military ends and they become a college student for a while...or a technician...or a banker, doctor...ect). So, following the older Baghavad Gita then their dharma either becomes continually at odds with their current existence, or it changes as well.
Oh shit...(stream of consciousness here)...something just clicked regarding that. I'm not sure what that means...yet. I'm thinking I need to ponder on these thoughts for a bit...see how they develop.
Ok, the second part is regarding what you quoted from krishna...both regarding killing and the illusion of physical life. While I do understand the basic wisdom here (to some extent at least) without the specific cultural references it could be seen as encouraging the worst of sociopathic behavior. "Because we mortals cannot truly kill/destroy anything/one, and life as we know it is merely an illusion whose parts we must play out in this reincarnation cycle, it's perfectly acceptable to maim and kill...in fact you should, and without remorse in order to fulfill your purpose under heaven."
Ok, I know that's a gross, and intentional misinterpretation. I was merely attempting to make a point that without the rather ingrained attitudes and philosophies of ancient India and their caste system, something similar is, unfortunately, inevitable by some folks.
While I have used the ideas/belief in reincarnation (and to some extent, that "holding ground" often refered to as "the summerland") as an effective tool in grief counseling, I'm not so certain of it's place in counseling those who've known/committed "real violence".
But again, thanks for posting. Definitely thought provoking...

[info]theperfumer

October 30 2009, 13:48:35 UTC 2 years ago Edited:  October 30 2009, 13:49:51 UTC

Grammar/presentation quibble: I had to struggle to read this because of all the "finger quotes." I understand why you used them as you're borrowing terms to relay a perspective that doesn't quite fit the terms used, but I don't think that you needed as many of them as you did use, and given the seriousness of the question removing a few of those quotes I think will communicate your seriousness more effectively.

To the question: I don't think anyone of ANY religion (no, not even Islam) has truly found a justification or moral flat ground for killing. I am Wiccan. I do believe that there are circumstances, hopefully rare ones, where administering death is the only real option, but even so there is no way of knowing for sure if it's truly the right thing to do.

In other words, I think it's unreconcileable. We may take lives. We may have to. But I don't think anyone ever should truly feel OK about it; if they do it's a slippery slope between warrior and sociopath. But because of that "stain on the soul" certainly people need spiritual help, especially if they suffer for the life taken, too. I can see creating a ritual where the person who killed interacts with the soul that was terminated. I'm not sure what it would do, but I think it might be the most direct way to reconcile the self that had never killed with the self that has.

[info]pinkpolarity

October 31 2009, 04:51:20 UTC 2 years ago

In other words, I think it's unreconcileable. We may take lives. We may have to. But I don't think anyone ever should truly feel OK about it; if they do it's a slippery slope between warrior and sociopath.

I agree with that. I don't know as I have "all life is sacred" specifically enumerated as a value of mine, but I agree with this nonetheless. (And I extend it to those who have killed by proxy. If your country has gone to war and soldiers have killed on your behalf (as a citizen of that country), it *should* matter to you to some degree. I have to say I like the way a fiction series I've recently reread dealt with this (and given that it's fantasy-history and the author has Done Her Research, I'm sure a lot of this is findable in real-world ancient Paganism, even if *I* don't know where to look for it)-- there's a ritual on Kriti (Crete) that purges people of blood-guilt. It also has a nasty possibility of driving them completely mad in the process, but I digress. The heroine goes through it, and says afterward, when she or one in her group has had to kill, that she thinks of the ritual and realizes that this, too, is part of the blood-guilt she carries, and that part of her role is simply to carry it. For it to matter. On the other hand, another one of her realizations is that while humans count the cost of the dead, the Gods don't give to humans the numbers of those saved-- and that they too, even as humans can't count their numbers as we would the dead, matter.

I like this approach, because it doesn't say "it's okay to kill", and it doesn't say "one should never kill", but that killing is sometimes necessary and always (whether necessary or not) carries a price, a toll on the self. (And I find myself measuring both people and fictional characters by this stick-- it's one of the things that perennially irritates the fuck out of me in my main fandom, that people kill the "bad guys" and only cheer, and never, ever seem to feel its effects. That sort of thing makes me wonder about the author more than a little.) And yes, I too think ritual of some kind is useful, not in a "do this and you're forgiven" way, but as a way to integrate yourself(-ves).

[info]kaylin

October 30 2009, 14:24:22 UTC 2 years ago

I will have to come back to this particular post when I have more time to think on an appropriate response, but I did want to basically give myself a place marker and say that this is an interesting topic.
I do, how-ever, want to ask why you feel that the act of killing or taking life would specifically fall under "Men's Mysteries"? I just want to better understand your P.O.V.

[info]grynner

October 30 2009, 21:02:15 UTC 2 years ago

Well, here's the disclaimer about offending.
I mentioned in the main post both that I am not wiccan (of any flavor) and that I have a rather minimalistic interpretation of men's and women's mysteries that more than a few others find...offensive..at best.
Basically, my interpretations are as follows: All women bleed for a time, every month, for a significant portion of their lives. And Life is in the Blood. With regards Men's Mysteries: All men hunt, kill, boast, lie, drink, and fuck. In one fashion or another. (I warned you, accurate and precise if somewhat gross minimalization of them. And no, my interpretation only seems to lump together gender vs chromosomal sex.)
The reason I think this topic falls under "men's mysteries" is the idea that men in our society are most often (less so as more and more gender roles, ie soldier or cop, are merged or simply eliminated from a single gender identity) placed in very tenuous situations:
They are called upon to uphold the idea (or variation thereof) that all Life is Sacred. That they should do their all to help, provide for, and protect their loves, their family, their community. Many, either newish pagans or those who adhere to some variant of the Rede (mostly eclectic wiccan, BTW, recons, ect, but some others as well), find themselves in the quandary where their duty as protector (say in the course of protecting their homes), their oaths of service (soldiers away at war), or both (cops/law enforcement in the line of duty) comes into conflict with their core belief (life is sacred) and ethics (harm none). Even if they allow for "lest in self defense", this still presents serious internal conflict when faced with having taken a life or even just having caused severe bodily harm.
There are also those cases where "accidents" happen. Perhaps because of DUI (theirs or someone elses), perhaps due to medical complications, or traffic incidents (a wreck caused by a blowout or rain/snow), or because they were "playing" with a loaded gun, or they missed the warning of no onions/peanuts when making food for someone severely allergic...
It's my interpretation that all of these things fall within the purview of my interpretation of the mysteries. Especially if viewed more from the gender role perspective than the biological. If left to the more "traditional" wiccan aspects of man/father/sage, I can see where this topic might be seen to miss the mark. But then, the more traditional wiccan viewpoint has had to make some...creative interpretations to fully include (OR integrate) folks who fall into non-traditional gender rolls and the GLBT aspects of our community.

[info]kaylin

October 31 2009, 04:17:08 UTC 2 years ago

This may be a touch long...

No offense is taken, seriously. I was just confirming outwardly what I thought you were getting at in terms of "Men's Mysteries".
For me, this comes as a conundrum mainly because I spent time as a Soldier (a role traditionally reserved for men) and now find myself in a medical role where sometimes, people do die, and it's my job to help them in that transitional phase. Not so much in the active euthenasia sort of form, but I do my best to make them comfortable and to give them dignity. This is why this post piqued my interest, and I wanted to post to it.
Alot of "New Age" Fluffy bunny Wiccans I find tend to only focus on the "Harm none" and "Life is Sacred" parts of the reeds and ideas. Even some of the other traditions that to acknowledge death as a part of life, they are strict moral guidelines against active hastening of death be it through medical intervention or through active duty/ self-defense.

Speaking as someone who was once a solider, in the heat of the moment, you are not going to care who the hell is shooting at you. You are going to "Switch off" the part of you that makes the rational/ sane/ humane decisions in order to preserve your own life, and yes, that does mean taking the life of another sometimes. It's only afterwards where you get to realise what you have done and feel remose for it or have difficulty dealing with it. While I was still in, I did have to deal with soliders who were having difficulty re-adjusting to "civilian life" because of the things they had seen and done.

Just like medical personel. Regardless of if they are in the Emergency room, the OR, or the wards, you will eventually come across death or be a part of someone's death. I still remember the first two patients I had that literally died in my arms, through no fault of my own. Again, there is a part of you that does "Switch off" so that you can do your job, espcially when sometimes the treatment of injury or illness does cause pain to your patient.

In essence we as a whole know we are not supposed to kill, but it does happen. Christians are told not to kill. It's one of their Commandments, just like in Judaism, all life is a gift from God and should be seen as such. But they are also given ways to repent what they've done. If they find it within their hearts through Jesus or beleif in God to forgive themselves for what they've done and are truly sorry, then they have forgiveness from the soul of the life they took, and their own measure of peace. Within Wiccan circles, they have the same moral codes and laws.

[info]kaylin

October 31 2009, 04:25:00 UTC 2 years ago

Part Two...

IMHO:
Inherently, all religion has a level of duality in it. Even the Crystal-waving white-lighters to the Hard-core Satanist to the Burka-supporting Islamist Fundamentalist to the Ancestor-worshipping Shintoist. It's up to the individual to recognise these in every day life as well as within spiritual practice.

Just like the decision to take life, either through active measure or indirect methods, is also an individual decision. So to then, the path to comming to terms with what you've done should also be an individual path. And it usually is for most people.

People are the best as kicking themselves when they're down, hence why they usually don't need others to do so for them.

I'm not a Wiccan either though, so my view point might be slightly bias.

[info]grynner

October 31 2009, 08:59:44 UTC 2 years ago

Re: Parts One and Two...

You are slightly incorrect there. It's not until Christianity or certain aberrations of other philosophies that the concept of "Life is Sacred"/Don't Kill (period) came into play. In the original hebrew (in all 7 of the currently recognized scroll sets unless I'm greatly mistaken) the commandment is "Do not kill without just cause"...not simply "Do not kill". What entitled just cause? Punishing a rapist, or a fornicating daughter or spouse to name just 3 short examples. It was "The Law" as established by God Himself.
The Koran has similar aspects to it. Some parts of the law carry an automatic death sentence, yet folks of opposing faiths (especially people of the book, that is, christians or jews) are supposed to be treated well if conquered in battle. If they choose not to convert, they may keep their old (mistaken) faiths, if they pay taxes for such a right.
The Tibetan monks philosophy grew out of philosphies attempting to find/create a greater good within waring factions/nations riven with caste systems that stole large amounts of choice from individuals.
But killing, especially of an enemy or in defense of family/community was never simply "wrong" until christianity really came into the forefront. Now, because it's in the current "versions" of the Bible, because it's "the Law" in every country, and because we are now "civilized"; we hold life as some sacred gift from God(s) that we must never violate. Yet, within my previous examples and your own, sometimes that line gets crossed.
The shadow work involved in reconciling this emotional/spiritual dichotomy is long and involved and something incredibly personal. This doesn't mean folks who've crossed those gates before can't help them along their journey. It doesn't mean that sometimes, a person needs their butt kicked into beginning the long task of reconciliation/healing/shadow work. It doesn't mean that it is unnecessary for someone to be standing alongside their path with a sign that says "Quit running from your guilt/shame. There are folks who understand and we want to help." (ok, not literally, but you get the point.)
The idea behind this workshop/chapter/endeavor is NOT to create some new variation of the "one stop shadow working, self-forgiving, and putting your shitty issues behind you" excuses for a workshop or ritual. The idea is to provide a beginning framework from which individuals, covens and groups can begin the extensive process of acceptance and healing those "scars upon their souls".
Why? Because I care. Because my path has taken me some... "interesting"... places, and if I can use that to help others heal or better develop their own spirituality, then I am obligated by my oaths and my gods to do so. Because I'm sick and fraking tired of all the sewagers...I mean new agers... and the wicca/paganism 101 BS that passes for the bulk of our communities spirituality and religious practices. They deserve better; they can have far better; if only us "more experienced folk" will step up.

[info]kaylin

November 1 2009, 23:07:16 UTC 2 years ago

Re: Parts One and Two...

Well, I'm not what one would consider a "More Experienced Folk", depending on which tradition you're following. I just happen to have a little more common sense, a skeptical mind and a yearning to understand certian things. Not everyone is like me, how-ever, and not everyone is going to listen to what you say. Sometimes, people have to figure out things on their own. It's like doing so validates the journey they took to get where they are, and it helps them appriciate the wisdom they learn from it.

The decision to take a life is never an easy one. What's funny is I went into a Bookstore today while browsing about for shit to do, and happened to pick up a Post Secret book. Not sure where it is in the publication scale line, but the Post Secret book was focusing in Death, sickness and religion. Interestingly enough, the first Post Secret I flip to basically says that the person would tell themselves that they were helping someone to ease their pain, but secretly they enjoyed playing God.

I often wonder how many people actually act on said impulse to play God...
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